David Abzug, Instructor-in-Residence, Undergraduate Game Design & Master of Science in Game Design and Development Program Head, Interactive Media Department

Warning: This episode contains strong language/swearing.

Transcript

Campus Changes And Community Art

Angie Cooksy 0:15

Welcome back to another episode of the Bradley University Podcast. I am one of your hosts, Angie Cooksy.

Ben Jedd 0:20

And I am Ben Jedd.

Angie Cooksy 0:22

We record live in the lower level of University Hall in Hilltop Studios. And this is one of my favorite things that we get to do, Ben.

Ben Jedd 0:29

Yeah, it's awesome. And U Hall is going to be like really exciting next year.

Angie Cooksy 0:37

It's like starting this summer. Yeah. There's going to be all sorts of new things happening. Yeah. I was looking at the the posters that are out upstairs. So I can't wait to see even in live action. Um there's a lot of things happening on campus.

Ben Jedd 0:55

There sure are. They knocked down the old uh continuing ed building, which was a bank one day.

Angie Cooksy 1:01

Was it?

Ben Jedd 1:02

It was a bank, yeah, like a long, long time ago.

Angie Cooksy 1:04

Oh, I learned that right now.

Ben Jedd 1:06

Yep.

Angie Cooksy 1:06

Um, every time I come and see the corner now, I'm so excited for the new art that's gonna go on the building.

Ben Jedd 1:12

I know. I'm excited as well.

Angie Cooksy 1:13

So for those of you who don't know, one of the things that's happening is um the relationships between Bradley and the community is something we're doing a lot of work on, and there's a current art contest to put a big mural on one of the sides of our buildings. And so uh now that the continuing ed building has come down, it's gonna be featured, which is super cool.

Ben Jedd 1:33

In there's going to be a whole new entrance to campus, and then the yeah, the Greater Peoria Leadership Council gave Bradley a grant to do a uh mural on the back of Harper. So it's it's pretty exciting.

Angie Cooksy 1:44

Lots of changes happening, and that's one of the reasons that we love doing the podcast is because not only do we get to talk about the things that are happening and coming up from campus, but we also get to interview really awesome people that are doing really awesome things on campus. And so today our guest is David Abzug, who is the instructor in residence for our undergraduate game design program and the head of our master's in science in game development. I was like, I'm gonna mess up the word.

Ben Jedd 2:13

You were so close.

David Abzug 2:14

It's the name just changed, so it's completely understandable.

Angie Cooksy 2:18

Okay, perfect. Um, welcome, David. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

David Abzug 2:21

Thank you for having me.

Angie Cooksy 2:22

So the way that we start every show is to really turn the floor over to you and give you some space to talk a little

Meet David And His Unusual Path

Angie Cooksy 2:28

bit about who you are, your background, your journey to Bradley, and the seat that you sit in today.

David Abzug 2:32

Okay. Um, well, like I said, I'm David. I started out um in the game industry back in the weirdest way, back in 1990. I got into game development through retail management, which is not what I would recommend for most people. There was a place in Chicago called the Battletech Center. It was one of the world's first interactive virtual reality entertainment centers. We had 16 cockpits hooked up in two groups of eight, and you would get in the cockpits and you would drive four-story tall walking tanks, and you would beat the living daylights out of your friends and loved ones, and then you would go to Mission Review and get to brag about it while you watched a replay and got a printout. It was well ahead of its time.

Angie Cooksy 3:12

Yeah.

David Abzug 3:12

Um, and I started out working there. I was the first hourly employee they ever hired because my last name starts with A B. And so I was the first one they called, but I'll take the geek cred that comes with that.

Angie Cooksy 3:24

Yeah. That's awesome.

David Abzug 3:25

Um about a year later, I was the general manager, and then two years after that, I was the training supervisor going around to the world, all all around the world, opening stores in San Diego, Dallas, Las Vegas, Pasadena, Indianapolis, Montreal, Tokyo, Sydney, Australia. Um, I didn't get to do the South Korean stores, somebody else did those, and I didn't do Walnut Creek. But I did most of the other most of the other sites that we had.

Angie Cooksy 3:52

Wow.

David Abzug 3:53

Um that's where my love of um storytelling through games, because the whole the whole thing sat inside of a fictional universe about the Virtual Geographic League founded in 1895 by Alexander Graham Bell and Nikola Tesla for the purpose of discovering and exploring alternate dimensions. Um and the storyline was that we had gone public because we needed money. So we were selling tickets to places it was safe to go to to fund further research. And the sites were themed out in that fashion. And the and the employees, similar to say, Galaxy's Edge at Star Wars, which is not shocking because at the time we were owned by Tim Disney. Okay. Um the the we were taught to stay inside, we taught them to stay inside the fictional universe and and treat everything as if it was actually happening.

Angie Cooksy 4:42

And part of the experience.

David Abzug 4:44

And then from there, I managed to slide over. We had started up a software company doing PC games based on the same IPs.

Angie Cooksy 4:53

Okay.

David Abzug 4:53

And I slid over as a starting level designer and never looked back. Um, spent 20 some years doing game design in one form or another for FASA Interactive, then FASA Studio at Microsoft when Microsoft bought us, and then at Volition, when we decided, when my wife and I decided we wanted to move back to the Midwest in Champaign. And then about almost exactly

Early VR And Story Worlds

David Abzug 5:20

eight years ago, um, I started teaching here. Wow.

Ben Jedd 5:24

So that's very cool.

David Abzug 5:26

Um, it's been I'm really lucky. I've managed to take my favorite hobby and turn it into not one, not two, but three completely different careers. And I don't know what I did in a former life to deserve that, but I need to find who that person was and I need to thank them. Um because it's been an incredible fun ride. Um, I used to think the best job in the world was making games. I was wrong. Um, the best job in the world is helping people make games and then watching the light turn on in their head once they make them. Watching them enjoy other people playing something they made and watching them watch someone have fun doing what they doing what they wanted. Um it's great.

Angie Cooksy 6:13

I swear I hate goosebumps at least once an episode. Like that's so uh it's just so impactful. I think like that's that's the magic of like the faculty here and the professor. Like, ah, that just you gotta go, Ben. I got nothing.

Ben Jedd 6:26

Okay, so I'm gonna I'm gonna go, I mean, sort of the same direction, but like kind of take take a turn. What is your favorite video game?

David Abzug 6:36

Of all time? Your personal favorite video game.

Ben Jedd 6:39

Oh um, I'm not allowed to swear, am I? I mean, okay, Mother Puss Bucket, that is hard. Um That's not swearing. Okay. I can't be fine.

Angie Cooksy 6:52

Um that just turned really red for those of you who are not watching the video.

David Abzug 6:59

I I I asked two questions when I I asked a bunch, but two of the questions that I asked when I interviewed her was is it okay to teach in tie-dye? And is it okay to swear in class? And I was told it's okay to teach in tie-dye, and it's okay to swear in class so long as I do it for emphasis and not at the students, which I'm like, That's a fair that's a fairly um I think I've delayed long enough. My favorite it's gonna change based on the day of the week. Sure. So I'm gonna give you like my Mount Rushmore, okay? My top, my top four. Um, there's the entire Diablo series. I've been playing Diablo since Diablo 1 came out, they're on Diablo 4. Diablo is the video game that I play when I'm not playing any other games. If I'm in between games, I pick up Diablo and I keep playing it. I I don't want to know how many thousands of hours I have between all four versions, between all four all four games. Um I love it's the most pure example of video games being about making the numbers go up. Okay. That's it's the it's the pure example of strategy and developing uh you know, putting together 28 different disparate things to make this one really cool thing that you can then do inside of the world that enables you to accomplish your goals. Um, to me, that's my favorite. I've intentionally stayed away from games like Minecraft and Terraria because I love my family and I want to continue seeing them. That's that's fair. Um the game that got me first deep into games, and this is going to be an old, this is this is where I get to sho get off my lawn is probably Avatar for the Plato system. The Plato system was a mainframe system at the University of Illinois back in the 1970s and 80s. And not shockingly, the people that worked there made games for it, despite the fact that it was an educational tool. And so in 1984, I was playing a multiplayer graphical multi-user dungeon. Um, 15-level dungeon with like 40 or 50 of us in the world at the same time. And um, it was it taught me so much about game development without me knowing it. That's cool. Um, so I'm gonna put that one on the list. Uh, the Heroes of Might and Magic series, specifically Heroes of Might and Magic 3, is one of my favorite turn-based strategy games. Um, it's

Career In Games And Teaching

Ben Jedd 9:30

wonderful, it's a wonderful collection of city building in comparison to travel and then combat and exploration was perfectly balanced. Um, I specifically say three because Heroes of Might and Magic 4 is a wonderful example of how not to go from 2D to 3D because they shifted from a 2D engine to a 3D engine and developed no additional gameplay. They just made it harder for you to figure out everything because it was on 3D. Um for the fourth one, staying away from any game I've ever worked on. Um probably I've done turn-based strategy, I've done real time, I've done action RPG, I've done RPG, oh what the heck, I love RPGs. Um, the Mass Effect series is my favorite um story um set in video games. There's specifically a character named Mordin Solus, whose arc of where he started at to where he ended up. Um it's one of the games that's made me cry. Okay. That that a certain moment in Mass Effect 3. And if you've played Mass Effect 3, you know exactly what moment I'm talking about. And if not, come grab me and I'll tell you. Um but I don't want to spoil it for people that want to play the games. Yeah. Sure.

Angie Cooksy 10:54

So I love listening to you talk about this because it it it shows sort of the heart behind, you know, I'm a mom of teenage boys, and so I live in a house where people are playing a lot of video games all the time. And sometimes I'm like, get off the computer, and then like, you can't just turn off the game, mom. And I'm like, oh my goodness. But to listen to you talk about it really does sort of change my perspective on the community that it is and then and the storytelling that goes behind it. Um one of the things I think people think about as they're looking at coming to Bradley to do something like game design is why does Peoria the right place to do it?

David Abzug 11:36

Because I'm prejudiced in favor of Bradley. I'll start out by saying that. Um I think we are the right place to do it because we've got the right people.

Angie Cooksy 11:45

Yeah. I love that.

David Abzug 11:46

And I don't mean the faculty, except I do mean the faculty. The faculty are amazing. Um my favorite example is for the last two summers in a row, we've had a group of students that walked into the summer not knowing what to do, so they said, screw it, they started their own, they they formed their own company, built a game over the summer, just to be able to say they built a game over the summer. Um, and an example of how good they are is that the most recent group is showcasing their game at the Game Developers Conference in San Francisco come March. That's awesome. They're gonna be on the show floor with a game that 15 of them got together to build over their sp in their spare time over the summer. Um, it's a fantastic game. It's called Midwest Goodbye, um, which is exactly it's it's a it's about exploring your relationships inside of inside of your family, is the way I would put it. It's it's not it's not a you know go shoot the aliens thing. It's something much more interesting and deeper than that.

Angie Cooksy 12:48

Yeah.

David Abzug 12:49

Um and

Mount Rushmore Of Favorite Games

David Abzug 12:50

I'm I don't know if I've told them that, but I cannot be more proud of the stuff they did.

Angie Cooksy 12:56

Yeah.

David Abzug 12:56

So to be able to be able to be able to work with students like that that are that nobody goes into video games because they're going, well, that's where the money is. Um despite the fact that the video game industry is ridiculously profitable.

Angie Cooksy 13:13

Right.

David Abzug 13:14

Um you know, if you if you're interested primarily in money, there's other avenues. You go into video games because you love video games. You go into video games because you were playing a game and you're like, I I could do this better. I think I what if they did this? What if they did that? This piece of artwork doesn't really fit. Someone needs to do that, redo that art. And so you go and redo that art and you mod it and so on and so forth. Um and so that's one of the benefits, that's one of the ways I think that our our program cheats is that everybody is there, is there because they desperately want to be there.

Angie Cooksy 13:50

I love that.

David Abzug 13:51

And so you get a lot of passion and a lot of drive and a lot of I mean, and I don't know, maybe I'm pre like I said, I'm prejudiced. My daughter's starting at Bradley as a game design major next fall. Yeah. So that that only has me terrified. But um, you know, it's that's that's the thing I love about it. We've got some good speaking outside of just that passion, we've got good connections with some of the with some of the some of the bigger game studios. Insomniac provides it, the makers of the Ratchet and Clank series and Spider-Man um provide a feedback team for one of our capstone teams. Oh wow. Undead Labs, who made State of Decay, does the same for our master's program. Rockstar, um, who's made the they made this little indie game, Grand Theft Auto. Um, nobody's heard of that. Yeah. Um provide another team, provide another feedback team. The fourth feedback team is from a group called Shapeshifter Games, which are fascinating because they're a co-dev studio. Their job is to be hired to go in and do this thing for this game, much like all the special effects houses in Hollywood. And so they get to work on a wide variety of things and see things from multiple perspectives. All of them provide feedback for our capstone and master's programs.

Ben Jedd 15:08

That's great. I I think um what is evident in our conversation is how passionate you are about the program. And I think it is impossible for that not to come across to students. So I think I think that's great. Uh do you have a specific student or alumni or undergrad grad story that really resonates with you?

David Abzug 15:36

My favorite moments as a teacher are when my students prove me wrong. Um I tell them that I want them to be the ones trying the crazy things. We intentionally set up our program and set to put it as bluntly as possible, the thing I tell the freshman in the in one of our I teach the IM 110 lecture section. One of the first things I tell the students is that their job is to fuck up for the next four years. Okay. That's their job. And our job is to put together an environment where they can learn from those mistakes, not be punished for making those mistakes.

Angie Cooksy 16:14

Yeah.

David Abzug 16:15

You don't get graded down if you make a mistake. If you want to get graded down, double down on that mistake, insist that it's not a mistake, keep pushing on it, don't listen to anybody when they're talking to you about it, that kind of stuff. But you don't get graded down for making a mistake. And so I want them trying crazy things. And so a couple of examples. Um a few years ago, I'm not going to use any current students because I don't want to call, you know, but a few years ago, I had a capstone team that came to me and said, we want to do a co-op multiplayer game with a changing environment. And I said, Are you out of your freaking mind? You're you don't how are you going to do multiplayer in the time that you have? And they smiled at me and said, Well, we actually already got it working. Um, like it was it was they're asking for forgiveness right now. It was like Ozymandias in Watchmen. I did it 20 minutes ago. Um The other one is FUSE, um, our end-of-year showcase. That's where the students get to try the craziest, weirdest stuff.

Angie Cooksy 17:23

Yeah.

David Abzug 17:23

Um, we had a game there two years ago that was done in conjunction with the engineering department, where they did custom-built fishing rod controllers so they could do a game about going fishing in the River Styx. Um, there was a game two years, a couple years before that, where they were doing a light gun arcade game on it on a turret. You know, you're moving around like this and you're shooting things at the screen. Except they were shooting pizza toppings at pizza that were going flying past. The name of the game was Pizza Pop.

Angie Cooksy 17:53

Yeah, I remember that one.

David Abzug 17:54

Um, and they built their own light gun system specifically so their light guns could look like cheese graters. That was their primary purpose. They wanted the light guns to look like cheese graters, and so they built their own entire light gun system just for that purpose.

Angie Cooksy 18:10

Yeah.

David Abzug 18:10

Um and then they pranked the living hell out of me. But that's a different that's I I'm I'm famous for thinking that pizza pineapple does not belong on pizza. And so the morning of FUSE, they told me that the game was broken and I needed to come look at it. And what they had done was replace all the toppings with pineapple.

Angie Cooksy 18:33

Sounds like you're very serious in the classroom. Oh, very, very strict, very thorough.

David Abzug 18:39

I only wear three-piece suits. Yeah. Um I, you know, I'm down the line. If you if you can't have fun making games, you can't make fun games.

Angie Cooksy 18:47

If you're not That's very powerful. I think you should say it again.

David Abzug 18:51

If you can't have fun making games, you can't make fun games. Um fun is insanely subjective, and fun is something that we do not have any measurements for. We've got starting with cave paintings, we've got 10, 20,000 years of working on art to get an idea for what is beauty, for what people like, to for what gives a message. Okay. We have 40 years of figuring out what the hell makes a video game fun.

Angie Cooksy 19:23

Yeah.

David Abzug 19:24

Um there is a fantastic book, Blood, Sweat, and Pixels by Jason Schreier. Now any s any of my students listening to this are rolling their eyes because I mentioned it monthly. Um where inside of the postmortem from what one of the games in the book, one of the designers goes, We love our design director. He's really smart. He gets something right on the first guest like 70% of the time. Okay. Name me another profession where getting it getting it wrong 30% of the time is considered wild success, outside of hitting a baseball.

Angie Cooksy 19:57

Right.

David Abzug 19:57

Um that's it's because it's so unknown and so subjective, and you're trying so many different things. And so game development is incredibly iterative. There's a there's a whole process that was developed just for it to be able to be more iterative.

Angie Cooksy 20:13

Yeah.

David Abzug 20:13

Um, and so it's try it, nope, go again, try it, nope, go again, try it, maybe change it, try it. Oh, there we go. Um, as you go back and forth. And that to me is what makes game development so much fun. Because it's you and a few other people heads down talking over what

Why Bradley For Game Design

David Abzug 20:35

should be the next change. Well, what is our goal here? What are we trying to accomplish? Okay, so maybe this will accomplish it. All right, what if we try that? Or if we don't define the goal, we're just screwed. Because now we don't know where we're going. Um sorry, I I lecture at the drop of a hat these days. So I apologize.

Ben Jedd 20:53

Don't apologize.

Angie Cooksy 20:54

This is why we love doing this. Because we literally we get to learn so much about all the cool things that are work that you're doing and why people are so passionate about it.

David Abzug 21:03

So that's you know, I'm I'm passionate about it because I love figuring things out. Yeah. And especially things that are subjective, and I love watching people enjoy things. Um we uh first game I ever worked on um professionally, I I built a couple things for the Battletech cockpits, but the first game I ever had credit on was a game called Mech Commander. And the day it released, this is back in the dark days before the Empire when you know games were sold in stores in boxes. Um I haunted a Best Buy until I watched somebody buy my game.

Angie Cooksy 21:47

Oh, that's a cool moment.

David Abzug 21:49

I stalked it until they and then like I didn't go up to them. I wasn't, you know, I didn't do that level of creepy, but I was like waiting for someone to buy a copy of Mech Commander just so I could go home happy. Um and I'm very proud that it didn't take that long.

Angie Cooksy 22:03

Yeah, that's really cool.

David Abzug 22:05

Yeah, that's that's the beautiful thing about it.

Angie Cooksy 22:09

What is your what's your favorite class to teach?

David Abzug 22:14

IM344 - environmental storytelling.

Angie Cooksy 22:16

Okay.

David Abzug 22:16

Um I developed the class, my I've developed a few classes myself, but this is the one that's been most successful. It's a J Term course. Um it's about the subject of environmental storytelling, using the world as a storytelling tool. It's taught online for the synchronous online for the first week and a half. Um we get together four or five hours a day. We break down different pieces of different games and movies and animated films that do environmental storytelling well. So we cover Bioshock and Unpacking and John Wick and Mad Max Fury Road and Wall-E and the Mitchells versus the Machines. Um we do what I call 10-minute exercises, which is I show you 10 minutes from a film you probably haven't seen with the sound off, and you need to tell me what's going on. Um, we do there's a couple of different articles and stuff we do. I go through the notes every night, every night they have to send me the reflections on what they learned, and then I go over those with the students the next day, the highlights to make sure that any lessons one student made gets passed around to all the others. And then we go to Disney World for five days. Um Can we come and max it? Yep, that's the class we're going to.

Angie Cooksy 23:28

We would also like to audit this class.

David Abzug 23:30

You're more than welcome. I've had people do that before. But Disney the Disney World, the Disney parks, all of the theme, I'm sure Universal does it as well, but we never have time to go there. The Disney parks, all they have is environmental storytelling. Yeah. They can't have someone following you around going, This is what this means. Okay. Instead, it's the way the world is built that tells their story. Um, I've got, you know, they get a guest lecture and a guided tour while they're there. Um, I also we do guest, we have a guest lecture during the online portion from the chief story editor of Meowwolf, which does interactive storytelling exhibits. Like uh, if you've ever heard of Omega Mart in Las Vegas, that's them. Um we do another guest lecture from um well from you'll recognize this last name, Sophie Katz, who works as a writer doing um exhibit doing attractions for Disney.

Angie Cooksy 24:29

Wow.

Industry Partnerships And Capstones

David Abzug 24:30

Um, and last but not least, we have a guest lecture from uh from an expert on Disney on the subject of how do I survive going to Disney.

Angie Cooksy 24:38

I mean that's a legit. That's a legit thing.

David Abzug 24:40

Um we take an immersive storytelling workshop um while they're at the parks, taught by Disney personnel. Um and then their final presentation, they do two present, they do two final presentations, which makes the word final a lie. So the first one is a piece of environmental storytelling from their own media, not something they made, but something that you have something they love. Okay, breaking it down, analyzing it, what methods were being used, how successful were those methods, what stories are being told, so on and so forth. Their final presentation is find a piece of environmental storytelling at the Disney parks that you think you can improve. What story was being told, what methods are being used, how successful were those methods, what would you do different, assuming an infinite budget but today's technology? You can't say I invent holograms. Right.

Ben Jedd 25:32

Sure.

David Abzug 25:32

Um and how would you redo it to better tell that story? Um I know the class, despite my imposter syndrome, I know the class is successful. Because two, three months after the class ends, I'll have students come up to me, and what they'll say basically is, God damn it, David, I can't watch anything anymore without fucking analyzing it. What the hell did you do to me? And I'm like, my job here is done. So that I'm I love stories. I love telling stories, I love reading stories, I love watching stories, I love playing stories. And being able to help them putting another tool in their kit for telling stories is fantastic. Also, I I mean, I'm not gonna lie, I like going to Disney World every year. Sure. That doesn't sound terrible. That sounds terrible. And I will say, if you're gonna go to Disney World, doing it with 24 college student science fiction fans that haven't been there before, that you walk into Galaxy's Edge together is an incredible natural high as you watch them turn the corner and see the Millennium Falcon for the first time. Um or there's a specific spot on a ride that I video every year. Um, because that it ends up with them like you know, as they're as their jaws drop.

Angie Cooksy 26:55

Yeah.

David Abzug 26:56

Um it's yeah. Magic. Yeah, it's my drug.

Ben Jedd 27:02

That's awesome. Angie and I just went on the galaxy, uh, Guardians of the Galaxy.

David Abzug 27:06

We did go on the Galaxy Galaxy. That has some of the best inline storytelling in the park. The way they've got it set up as so cool. It's it's really fun. It's it's set up as basically the Xandar Pavilion for Epcot. And so you've got all these, all this stuff happening around you as you're going through the line. I literally, though, they opened it two a little over two years ago. Um I have a friend, the same one that gives the lecture on surviving Disney, that's um a Disney Vacation Club member and was living in Florida at the time, you know, so on and so forth. And so they were going to Disney in October. And I went down there on the cheapest flight possible, bought two days' worth of tickets, crashed in their room solely so we could go to Epcot and go on that ride. And go on that ride so I could document it and take about 173 photos for me to lecture on it that January. Um, it's probably the best inline storytelling in the parks. And it's and it goes seamlessly into the pre-show

Learning By Failing Safely

David Abzug 28:10

with Glenn Close and Terry Cruz. There's that, there's Smuggler's Run, um, there's Rise of the Resistance. I may be a Star Wars fan. Um, and there's actually one of the older ones, Expedition Everest in Animal Kingdom, with the story of trying to find the Yeti and going through all of the they're just like masterclasses in it.

Angie Cooksy 28:35

Well, you have been a masterclass today. Um, I I wish we had more time because I there's just so much that I would like to learn from you. And so I hope you come back and and share more stories with us. Um but as we wrap up, we ask everybody the same question. Um David, what are you unapologetically exceptional at

David Abzug 29:00

Uh, building Legos? I don't know. Unapologetically exceptional at I think I'm good at getting people excited. Um I think I I need to be excited as well. Yeah. Um but like just what I just talked about with environments, which by the way, we're opening up to everybody on the campus for the first time this year. Expect flyers about how you can apply to the course.

Ben Jedd 29:23

The marketing and communications office would love to help you make those flyers.

David Abzug 29:27

Thank you for your time. We now return you to your regularly scheduled podcast while we're doing progress. Um sorry. Short commercial break. That kind of you know, something like that. Um I'd like to hope that my enthusiasm for the stuff I do is infectious.

Angie Cooksy 29:44

It absolutely is.

Ben Jedd 29:46

Absolutely is. So thank you.

Angie Cooksy 29:47

Anything you'd like to share or add before we wrap up today?

David Abzug 29:50

Um thank you for having me. Of course. Um I I I don't know. Um, thank you all for listening um or putting up with me for the next half for the last half hour, whichever way you want to put it. Um, and I hope to see you all around campus.

Angie Cooksy 30:04

Yeah.

Ben Jedd 30:05

Thank you.

Angie Cooksy 30:06

That wraps up another episode of the Rebel University Podcast. This is one of the most fun things that Ben and I get to do, and we hope that we get to meet you. Um, so if you would like to come on and share your story, reach out to Ben and uh we'll get you scheduled to come on the show. See you next time.

Speaker 4 30:22

Bye bye.